10 thoughts on “Why is Jesus Our Substitute?

    Time would fail me to quote the passages in which he plainly declares that He came to reveal the Divine truth to men, to bring the Divine life down to them, and to open their eyes to see it. He says nothing about satisfaction, about the payment of debt. He is the good Shepherd, the great Physician, the perfect Teacher, the faithful Exemplar in every work. He did come to make an atonement, to make us at one with Him and the Father who dwells within Him. He assumed a human Nature because He could not come to man in any other way. He did what a just, wise, and loving father would do. If one of your children had wandered from home, had spent all his living, was sick and dying, would you not do all in your power to save him? Would you not spend time, money, labor; would you not provide yourself with all the instrumentalities in your power that were necessary to reach him? And do you suppose that infinite love, compared with which your love is not so much as a drop of water to ,the ocean, would refuse to be reconciled to His lost and dying children until he had received full compensation for their sin; until there had been measured to Him, “eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe,” or an exact equivalent? It cannot be. Reason, Scripture, the perceptions of justice and mercy which the Lord has given us, and the deep, spontaneous yearnings of our own hearts, declare it to be impossible. No, the Lord did not come into the world to satisfy the demands of an inflexible and arbitrary justice. He came rather to satisfy the demands of infinite love; not to pay a debt, but to reach the dying soul, to cleanse it from its impurities; to heal its diseases; to mould it into His own image and likeness, and fill it with His own peace and blessedness.


      2. Please provide a Scripture reference that you feel supports your theory of atonement so we can have a discussion. Unless we go to the Scripture, we are both wasting our time. The video has many Scripture references and makes a brief case for penal, substitutionary atonement.

      3. havau22:

        I will not approve any more comments unless we have a substantive discussion. You have not responded with any Scripture references. I understand you disagree with penal, substitutionary atonement. I understand, now please explain from the Scripture why.

        You have a 10 minute video (above) which briefly explains a case for penal, substitutionary atonement that can get you started. You have not interacted with it. If you respond with something of substance, we can continue.

  2. OK LETS START HERE.WITH THE INCARNATION.WHICH SHOULD LEAD TO A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF THE ATONEMENT…. Behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day, in the city of David, a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.” (Luke ii. 10, 11.)

    In these few and simple words, the angel of the Lord announced to the shepherds upon the plains of Bethlehem, the most important event in the history of humanity. It marks the lowest depth of the descent of the human race from the innocence of its infancy, and the point where its ascent began. By the coming of the Lord, a new element of life was infused into the hearts of men; a new truth was introduced and became established in human history, which was to be a sun in the spiritual night, growing brighter and brighter unto the perfect day; a central truth which was to be the source of all truth; the standard of all genuine excellence, and the sure guide to its attainment. A fountain of living waters was opened in the scorched and blasted heart of humanity, which was to become a well of water springing up unto eternal life.

    The first question that naturally arises is: Who was incarnated?—who came into the world? The angel said, He was “Christ the Lord.” Our doctrines declare that the Being who is called in the Old Testament, Jehovah, The I Am, The Holy One of Israel, The God of Jacob, was the person who was incarnated. This is affirmed in so many passages in the Bible, both directly in the most explicit terms, and indirectly by necessary inference, that it would occupy the whole time of my lecture to repeat them. I can do but little more than refer to the various classes of texts, which declare this.

    1. The declaration is repeatedly made in the most solemn manner, that there is only one God. “The first of all the commandments is, The Lord our God is one Lord.” (Mark xii. 29, 30.) “Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.” (Deut. vi. 4, 5.) “I am Jehovah, and there is None Else; there is no God beside Me.” (Isaiah xlv. 5, 6.) “Is there a God beside Me? Yea there is no God. I know not any.” (Isaiah xliv. 8.) “Who is God save Jehovah, or who is a Rock save our God?” (Psalm xviii. 31.)

    2. The same Being is repeatedly declared to be the only Redeemer and Savior. “I am Jehovah, thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Savior.” (Isaiah xliii. 1, 3.) “And all flesh shall know that I, Jehovah, am thy Savior and thy Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.” (Isaiah lx. 16.) “As for our Redeemer, Jehovah of Hosts is His name, the Holy One of Israel. I am Jehovah, and besides Me there is no Savior. I am Jehovah thy God; there is no Savior besides Me.” (Hosea xiii. 4.) These are only a few passages of the same import. Language cannot affirm a truth in plainer and more forcible terms than is affirmed in these passages, that the Being called Jehovah is the only Savior, that there is none beside Him.

    1. A few things:

      1. Please make your point on the incarnation and how it relates to your assertion about the atonement.
      2. Please let me know who you’re quoting from.
      3. To make sure we’re on the same page, are you a Trinitarian?


        The New Testament speaks of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Many have understood this to mean that God is in three Divine Persons, each of whom is infinite and eternal, and each of whom is God and Lord. But the New Testament does not speak of Persons in God at all, much less of three Divine Persons existing from eternity.
        It is admitted by many that the question of how three persons make one God is past all human understanding. And because of this mystery many people do not think deeply about God, believing that their minds are not capable of entering into such thought.
        What does Swedenborg teach concerning the Divine Trinity?
        From what has gone before in this lecture it can be seen that the Father, the one infinite and eternal God, is not one Divine Person and the Son another Divine Person. but that they are one. as soul and body are one. The Son. the Divine Human, is the Divine Body, and the Father is the Divine Soul in that Divine Bodv. Even as the soul and body of a man are not two people, but one person, so the Father and the Son, the Divine and the Divine Human of the Lord are one Divine Person.
        But what then of the Holy Spirit?
        Swedenborg teaches that the Holy Spirit is the Lord’s own Divine Spirit going forth from Him to men and angels. It is the Divine Love and Wisdom proceeding out of the Divine Human of the Lord to work the regeneration and salvation of mankind. This can be seen perfectly represented in the Gospel of .John:

        “And when He had said this. He breathed on them and said. Receive ye the Holy Spirit.” (John 20:22)

        This was said after the Lord’s Resurrection. The Holy Spirit is there represented as the Breath of the Lord. His Breath is His Divine Truth going forth from Himself to men. Swedenborg calls this the Divine Proceeding, or, the Divine Operation.
        That the Holy Spirit is the Divine proceeding from the glorified Human of the Lord is also taught in these passages from the New Testament: “But this He spake of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.” (John 7:39.) The original Greek reads “The Holy Spirit was not yet, because that Jesus was not yet glorified.”

        “It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you.” (John 16:7.)

        After the Lord was glorified, that is, after His Human was made Divine, the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, which leads men into all truth, could come to men, because through the Divine Human the Divine Good and Truth can inflow into our minds.
        The conclusion therefore is that the Divine Trinity is not a Trinity of Persons, but that it is a Trinity of essentials in the one Divine Person, our Lord Jesus Christ. The Father is the Divine itself, present in Him as the Soul. The Son is the Divine Human, which is the Body of that Divine Soul, and the Holy Spirit is the Divine Operation, the Divine Good and Truth proceeding from God to men.
        This is taught also by Paul, in these words concerning the Lord:

        “For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” (Col. 2:9.)

        If you see God as one Divine Person, one Divine Man, and the Trinity in Him as Soul, Body and Proceeding, you will have an understandable idea of God and of the Divine Trinity in Him. This teaching is that which is given in the Old Testament and in the New Testament. It is the Supreme Truth concerning the Lord.
        This truth may be summarized thus: That the Lord Jesus Christ is the one God of heaven and earth, that He is Jehovah, the Lord from eternity, that He is the Creator from eternity, that He is the Redeemer in time, that He is the regenerator into eternity, and thus that He is at the same time the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
        The Lord Jesus Christ is our God. There is no other. To Him we owe all that is good and all that is true. All power in heaven and on earth is His. To Him alone should we pray. To Him alone should be our worship, our love, and the service of our lives. EMANUEL SWEDENBORG

      2. I assume you’re a modalist, then? We have much more important things to talk about than penal, substitutionary atonement, then. I know you’re aware that modalism, or Oneness Theology, is considered a damnable heresy.

        I’d appreciate it if you’d look at this article on my church website: http://goo.gl/xnpjXR. Please think about the brief arguments, and watch the videos that are embedded in the article. Although the videos feature Arians interacting with Trinitarians, you may find them useful. Please take this exchange to the linked article, and we’ll interact there.

        I’ll pray for you to be convicted of the truth about our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s